Platonic Dialogues on Love: Symposium, Phaedrus, Lysis, & Alcibiades 1, Comments by Anders Nygren

How can we benefit by reflecting on Four Platonic Dialogues on
Love: Lysis, Alcibiades, Symposium, and Phaedrus? How similar
are they?
Was it possible for men and women, and husbands and wives, to
be friends in ancient Greece and Rome?
Did the Platonic dialogues on love condone or encourage
homosexuality and pederasty, or men-boy love?
We will also ponder the comments on these dialogues by the
theologian Anders Nygren in his influential book, Agape and Eros,
and also by Frederick Copleston, the famous Jesuit professor.

Please, we welcome interesting questions in the
comments. Let us learn and reflect together!
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used for this video.
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There are four Platonic dialogues on love, the Symposium,
the Phaedrus, which we have already reflected on in our
videos, and an early dialogue, Lysis, a shorter dialogue on
love and friendship. In addition, Xenophon penned his own
Socratic dialogue on the Symposium. We also include
Alcibiades 1 in our Platonic dialogues on love, since
Alcibiades 1 and Plato’s Symposium ponder the nature of
the friendship between Socrates and his famous and
problematic student, the outrageous Alcibiades.

Socrates finds
his student
Alcibiades at
heterai, by
Henryk
Siemiradzki,
circa 1873

Since I am a Christian, whether Plato and Socrates
condone or merely tolerate homosexuality, and in
particular pederasty, is an important question. There is no
doubt that homosexuality and pederasty was more
prevalent and accepted in the ancient world than in the
modern world. But it is also true that both in the ancient
and modern worlds that some people favored
homosexuality and pederasty, and some who either
opposed or were uncomfortable with these practices.

Plato's Symposium, by Anselm Feuerbach, 1869

We first reflected on the Symposium dialogues by
Plato and Xenophon. Xenophon tolerates pederasty
and homosexuality, he does not promote it, but
Plato’s dialogue has passages that condone and
condemn these practices. In each Symposium, or
dinner party, first the guests deliver a series of
speeches, and in Plato’s Symposium these speeches
are on carnal romantic love.

Then Socrates, in each Symposium, delivers the
capstone speech on Divine Love.
In Plato’s Symposium, the drunken Alcibiades crashes
the dinner party after Socrates finishes his uplifting
discourse on how Diotima taught him the virtues of
Divine Love. Alcibiades remembers how he tried to
seduce his friend Socrates, but he respected his
preference for a friendship based on Divine Love.

The friendship between Alcibiades and Socrates is
explored further in Alcibiades 1. We agree with
ancient and medieval scholars who accept that this is
an authentic Platonic dialogue, though it may be
penned by his student under his direction.

The next dialogue is between the young Phaedrus and Socrates,
and they discuss whether Phaedrus should allow Lysias to seduce
him into a homosexual relationship, and there is mild flirting
between Socrates and his young student, again pursuing more a
divine than an erotic love.
The first part of the dialogue discusses how many people misuse
rhetoric, delivering speeches that manipulate and mislead rather
than inform. Socrates critiques the seducing speech of Lysias,
showing its faults, and unsuccessfully tries to improve the
speech, but finds that it is impossible to purify a deceitful speech.

Socrates scraps the speech, replacing it with a memorable
speech on Divine Love with the delightful allegory of the
heavenly chariot. This chariot driven only by mortals has
both an immortal steed that seeks to ascend to the
heavens, representing Divine Love, and a mortal steed that
seeks to descend to the earth, representing carnal
pleasures. In the Phaedrus, the charioteer mediates in the
struggle between divine love and carnal love, as
represented by these two steeds.

But then we reflected on the dialogue where the
young Lysis discusses the nature of friendship with
Socrates. Hippothales, an older companion, asks
Socrates to introduce him to Lysis, the handsome
young man he has a crush on. Several old men are
watching these teenagers work out nude in the
gymnasium in Athens. There is no hint of
condemnation of pederasty in this dialogue.

Homosexuality & Pederasty: Ancient Greece
The Rape of
Ganymede,
by Rubens,
1612, and by
Rembrandt,
1635

The practice of pederasty, or men-boy love, is so
embedded in Greek culture that there is even a myth
where Zeus, in the form of an eagle, abducts the
mortal youth Ganymede. Ganymede is granted
immortality as the cupbearer of Zeus, and his father
is placated by a gift of immortal horses delivered by
the god Hermes.

The Abduction of
Ganymede By
Zeus as an Eagle,
by Bénigne
Gagneraux, 1782

Men were more likely to form close friendships with
each other since Greek marriages were so unequal.
In ancient Greece marriages were usually arranged,
men usually married in their thirties to girls in their
mid-teens, and the husband was more like a teacher
to his wife than a companion.

Symposium
scene:
banqueters
playing the
kottabos
game while a
girl plays the
aulos. A
wreath
hanging on
the wall.
Laurel
wreaths on
the heads,
420 BC

But in rural areas in all ancient societies, women
were not sequestered, since the women helped on
the farm. There were other exceptions, the most
notable was Aspasia, the wife of the statesman
Pericles.

Aspasia
conversing
with Pericles,
Alcibiades,
Isocrates,
Socrates,
Plato and
Xenophon,
Euripides and
Sophocles,
Phidias and
Parrhasius.
Nicolas-André
Monsiau,
1800’s

In ancient Athens, aristocratic women were literally
locked up in the back rooms of the house, on the
second floor if possible, and were only seen in public
at funerals. Women were rarely educated and were
rarely literate. The purpose of marriage in the ancient
world was to raise children who would keep alive the
family name as well as take care of you when you are
older.

The epistles of St Paul in the New Testament, Romans in
particular, exhorted that homosexuality was not to be
tolerated by the new Christian religion. This attitude was
not an innovation, homosexuality was becoming less
acceptable to Roman society, and was not tolerated by
Judaism and the Mishnah. However, we must keep in mind
that while St Paul’s Epistle to the Romans also condemned
lesbianism, as did the Mishnah, that the Old Testament
itself only specifically condemns male homosexuality. We
are planning a video on these topics in the future.

St Paul Writing
His Epistles, by
Valentin de
Boulogne, 1620

Summary of Platonic Dialogues on Love
Plato's Symposium, by Anselm Feuerbach, 1869

Although Socrates delivers a speech on Divine Love in both
Symposiums, the other guests differ. The guests in Plato’s
Symposium reflected on carnal or romantic love, whereas
Xenophon’s guests composed speeches on “what
beneficial thing they are most expert in.” One of
Xenophon’s guests is Antisthenes, the Cynic philosopher
who lives as an ascetic. One of Plato’s guests is
Aristophanes, whose play, The Clouds, ridicules Socrates as
a Sophist and may have contributed to his execution.

All of these dialogues were written after Athens was defeated in
the Peloponnesian Wars. The victor, the Spartan general Lysander,
temporarily ended the democracy, installing Athenian aristocrats
in the rule of the Thirty Tyrants. This government, led by Critias, a
former student of Socrates, descended into a rule of terror. The
tyrants first executed their political enemies, and then started
executing their fellow aristocrats so they could seize their
property. After a brief civil war, the tyranny was overthrown, and
the radical democracy was restored. In both Symposiums, the
guest lists include both tyrants and those who either opposed the
tyranny or were victims.

Among the dinner guests for Xenophon’s Symposium was
Callius, the host, who had a crush on the young boy,
Autolycus, who attended the Symposium with his proud
father, Lycon. (REPEAT) Autolycus’ modesty was regal, “his
good looks drew everyone’s attention,” “there was not a
man there whose feelings were not moved at the sight of
him, some became more silent.” Lycon proclaimed in the
dialogue that he was quite proud of his son, and there is
no mention that Lycon approves of Callius’ interest in his
boy.

https://youtu.be/OIe5pn2S1Ls
Autolycus’ modesty was regal, “his good looks drew everyone’s attention,” “there was not a
man there whose feelings were not moved at the sight of him, some became more silent.”

In his speech, Socrates proclaimed that “Love was a
mighty god, and likewise fair;” but his friend Diotima
proved that “Love was neither fair nor good.” “Do not
infer that because Love is not fair and good, he is
therefore foul and evil; for Love is in a mean between
them.” Furthermore, “Love is a great spirit, and like
all spirits, he is intermediate between the divine and
the mortal.” “Love mediates between gods and men,
conveying to the gods the prayers and sacrifices of
men, and to men the commands and replies of the
gods.” “God mingles not with man; but through Love
all intercourse and conversing with God, whether
awake or asleep, is carried on. The knowledge which
understands this is spiritual; all other knowledge,
such as arts and handicraft, is mean and vulgar.”
Jadwiga Łuszczewska, who used the
pen name Diotima, posing as the
ancient seer, by Józef Simmler, 1855

Diotima does acknowledge that common
love does have its divine aspects, especially
how men and beasts both seek partners
and protect their young: “Do you not see
how all animals” “are in agony when they
are infected by love,” how eager they are to
mate, and how often they are “tormented
with hunger or suffer anything to maintain
their young?” This is also true for men,
“Marvel not then at the love which all men
have of their offspring; for that universal
love and interest is for the sake of
immortality.”
Girl with a Mirror, an Allegory of Profane Love,
by Paulus Moreelse, 1627

In Plato’s Symposium, after Socrates delivers a
wonderful Socratic dialogue by his former lady friend
Diotima on divine love, the controversial drunken
Alcibiades crashes the Symposium, and delivers his
own speech on the divine love of Socrates. Socrates’
love is divine because he loves philosophy, and he
has declined to be the homosexual lover of
Alcibiades, though as a friend he always seeks to
direct Alcibiades to live a selfless life of philosophy.

Indeed, many paintings depict Socrates tearing his
promising but wayward student loose from the arms
of ladies of the night.

Socrates driving Alcibiades away from vice, by Jules Le Chevrel, 1865
Socrates Chiding Alcibiades in Home of
Courtesan, Germán Hernández Amores, 1857

Socrates has a simpler, more Stoic
style speech in Xenophon’s
Symposium: “Love for the mind is
much better than physical love.”
Those who have a celestial love for
the character of their beloved have a
pleasant love, but “many with
sensual desires criticize and dislike
the characters of those whom they
love.” For those with a sensual love,
“the bloom of youth quickly fades,”
as does affection; “but when a mind
is progressing to greater wisdom, the
more lovable it becomes.”
Terrestrial and Celestial Venus, Mortal and Divine Love,
Louve Museum, 1508

The dialogue between Socrates and his most notorious student in
Alcibiades 1 continues their dialogue in the Symposium. Alcibiades had
unlimited potential, but his hubris made him many enemies dedicated to
his ruin at all costs, including the ruination of Athens. Socrates returns to
his main concern: What is Justice? With regards to Alcibiades, What
makes a good leader? Should the good leader be a philosopher?
Alcibiades has more patience than most with Socrates’ constant
questioning, but they both agree that courage is a primary virtue for a
leader, since ancient Athens was a warrior culture.
Socrates shares with Alcibiades that he is his true lover because he loves
his soul, unlike his many other friends whose carnal love never lasts and
will be gone tomorrow.

Socrates ends this dialogue
saying that he is not hopeful
for the future of Athens
under Alcibiades. “I am
filled with dread, not
because I do not trust in
your nature, but because I
see the force of the city and
fear that it will overcome
both me and you.”
Alcibiades Death, Yakov Fyodorovich Kapkov, 1842

In the Phaedrus, Socrates again is interested mainly in the
love of philosophy, the love of knowledge and wisdom,
and is more interested in virtue than passionate pleasure.
Socrates encounters his young student Phaedrus, and they
reflect on the letter from Lysias, a male suitor seeking to
seduce young Phaedrus. The beginning portion of the
dialogue is about both love and rhetoric, as Socrates
demonstrates how Phaedrus’ suitor employs a logically
faulty speech to deceive Phaedrus, grooming him for an
exploitive relationship.

Phaedrus also delivered a speech on love in Plato’s
Symposium and may have been involved in the
destruction of the herms that was blamed on
Alcibiades, leading to Alcibiades’ exile and the
disastrous Athenian defeat in the Sicilian Expedition
that contributed to Athens’ eventual defeat in the
Peloponnesian Wars.

The final speech by Socrates in the Phaedrus is a wonderful
metaphor for divine love and carnal love. The metaphor is that of
a divine charioteer, whose chariot is pulled by two steeds,
immortal and divine, and mortal and passionate. The immortal
steed, noble and virtuous, seeks to pull the chariot to the
heavens to contemplate the good and divine truth. The mortal
steed, carnal and passionate, seeks to drag the chariot down to
the earth and vulgar impulses. All intimate relationships are a
battle between opposing drives symbolized by these two
opposing immortal and carnal steeds.

The Socratic dialogue of Lysis is disturbing for those who
are less tolerant of homosexuality. In this dialogue,
Socrates is accompanying the older men Hippothales and
Ctesippus to the gymnasium, where the twelve-year-old
Lysis will be exercising with his young best friend,
Menexenus. Hippothales has a crush on the young Lysis,
and Ctesippus complains that his older friend even
composes love songs about the young Lysis. Socrates
agrees to try to provide an entrée for Hippothales to
converse with Lysis, to get to know him better.

Athletes in a
gymnasium.
Gouache painting.

Socrates notices that Hippothales is quite shy, so he decides not to
encourage Lysis to converse with his suitor. This reluctance can be due to
the fact that although old men liked to observe gymnastic exercises and
competitions to ogle the nude young boys, that pederasty at the
gymnasium was likely illegal in Athens. One footnote references an
ancient court case referencing these laws guarding against pederasty at
the gymnasium, which applied to both spectators and especially coaches.
Like many dialogues, Lysis concludes without an answer to the question,
What is love? What is friendship? Many of the arguments and responses
are purposely faulty. It is up to us to study the dialogue and formulate
our own answer, that is our duty in life, to determine truly what it means
to love your neighbor.

What are some of the questions Socrates raises?
If someone is useless to you, does that mean he
cannot be your friend?
When is a person fond of another person, who
is his friend? Is the one who loves the friend of
the one who is loved, or is it the other way
around?
Can you only be friends to those who befriend
you?
Can only good men can be friends with one
another?
Can an enemy love a friend, and can a friend
love an enemy?
Socrates teaches a youth, José Aparicio, 1811

Socrates concludes that friendship is indeed a puzzle.
Perhaps friendship is not so much an academic
endeavor we need to understand but is rather
companionship should enjoy and experience. As true
friends we should seek to bring out the best in
everyone we meet, making everyone we meet
slightly better people because they met us.

Socrates teaching Alcibiades, by Christoffer
Wilhelm Eckersberg, 1816 Plato's Academy mosaic, 1st century BC from Pompeii

Copleston: From Divine Love to True Beauty
The Jesuit theologian Frederick
Copleston quotes from Diotima’s
speech on Divine Love in the
Symposium, showing how this
Divine Love enables “the soul’s
ascent to true Beauty under the
impulse of Eros,” the Eros that
passionately draws us upward
toward the Divine, up to divine
wisdom, justice and temperance.
Jupiter Chariot between Justice & Piety, by Noël Coypel, 1671

Copleston continues, The
soul ascends until he reaches
the contemplation of a
Beauty that is “eternal,
unproduced, indestructible;
neither subject to increase
or decay; not partly beautiful
and partly ugly.” This is the
perfect Beauty of the Forms,
the ideas, the Ideal, “all
other things are beautiful
through a participation of it.”
Phaéton on the Chariot of Apollo, by Nicolas Bertin, 1720

Copleston says that “in the Phaedrus, Plato
speaks of the soul who beholds ‘real existence,
colorless, formless and intangible, visible only to
the intelligence,’ and which sees distinctly
‘absolute justice, absolute temperance, and
absolute science; not such as they appear in
creation, nor under the variety of forms to which
we nowadays give the name of realities, but the
justice, the temperance, the science, which exist
in that which is real and essential being.’ This
implies that these forms or ideals are comprised
in the Principle of Being, in the One, or at least
they owe their existence to the One.” These
thoughts are more fully developed in
NeoPlatonism.
Jupiter, by Nicolai Abildgaard, 1793

Chariot of Zeus, 1879 Stories from the Greek Tragedians by Alfred Church
Theologian Anders Nygren, Agape and Eros

Many Christian commentators posit that there are three types of
love, agape or divine love, friendship, and carnal erotic love. But
actually, the Greek word eros is often seen as a passionate love,
both between lovers, and experienced by those who love God
with a passionate love of the divine. This latter type of love is the
love that is allegorized in many interpretations of the Song of
Songs in the Old Testament, where a Persian-style love poem is
allegorized to mean the love felt by the devout believer towards
our compassionate God, a notion that is heavily influenced by
Neo-Platonism and theologians such as Dionysius the Areopagite
and St John of the Cross.

https://youtu.be/DgL7Y5pIFAU https://youtu.be/6VffPIzfT-o
https://youtu.be/wlr55ddb-lc
Dionysus the Areopagite influenced many
medieval and modern theologians, including:
St John of the Cross
St Thomas Aquinas
St Maximus the Confessor
Patriarch Severus
Mystical and Orthodox theologians
BUT NOT Martin Luther

In his book Agape and Eros, the theologian Anders Nygren coins the word
Eros-piety for the divine love described by Socrates in Plato’s Symposium.
Did this Eros-piety of the ancient Greeks pave the way for a Christian
concept of love, or was it a rival to Christianity? Scholars have argued
both positions.
Nygren views the doctrine of Eros as espoused by Diotima, companion of
Socrates in Plato’s Symposium, as “fundamentally a doctrine of
salvation.”
He posits that there is a connection between this Platonic concept of
divine love and Orphism, which were early Greek religious practices
surrounding the myth of Dionysus, according to the mythical poet
Orpheus.

Sacrifice to
Bacchus, by
Massimo
Stanzione,
1634

This early myth “tells how
Zeus had resolved to give
his son Zagreus,” who is
predominantly identified as
Dionysus, “dominion over
the world; but while
Zagreus was still a child, the
Titans,” primordial giants,
“killed and devoured him.
But Zeus smote the Titans
with his thunderbolt and
destroyed them; and out of
the Titans’ ashes he then
formed the race of men.”
Bacchus, or Dionysius, and Ariadne, by Titian, 1523

This myth explains man’s double nature,
both being “akin to the Divine and at
enmity with it,” due to “man’s double
origin. As created out of the Titans’
ashes, he is evil and hostile to God; but
since in the Titans’ ashes there was also
something of the god they had
consumed, there is also something
Divine in the composition of man. Man
thus belongs by origin to two worlds: he
is an earthly being with a ‘titanic’ nature,
but he also has in him a ‘divine spark.’”
Titan Prometheus Brings Fire to Mankind, by Heinrich Füger, 1817

Nygren proclaims: “This
conception of the double
nature of man, of the Divine
origin and the quality of the
soul, its liberation from the
things of sense, and its ascent
to its original Divine home, is
the common basis on which
every theory of Eros rests.”
Allegory of love, by Hans Makart, circa 1800

This conception of Eros
he sees as the basis for
other ideas, “such as
belief in a pre-existent
Fall, the conception of
the body as the prison-
house of the soul, the
idea of the
transmigration of souls,
belief in the soul’s natural
immortality; and hand in
hand with these go the
basic mood of asceticism
and the mystical-ecstatic
way of salvation.”
The Fall of the Titans, by Cornelis Cornelisz van Haarlem, 1598

Plato in his doctrine the Ideas, or Forms,
is a synthesis of Greek rationalism and
Oriental mysticism, or logos and mythos.
While Western philosophers emphasize
the logos, Nygren warns “that in Plato
we do not find philosophy in the modern
sense of a critical, scientific discipline,
but rather in the sense of a philosophy
of life built up partly on a religious
basis,” a philosophy concerned with
salvation and the soul’s welfare. This is a
deeper meaning of salvation which
improves the soul, a salvation where the
Kingdom of God is among us.
Plato's Academy mosaic, 1st century BC from Pompeii

Nygren notes that “in the
mysteries, the soul’s salvation is
attained through initiations,
purifications, and ritual
observance, while in Plato it is
through philosophy. But even for
a philosopher it involves a
‘conversion’ and ‘purification’;
and not even the philosopher can
achieve the goal by means of
dialectic, but he reaches it only in
a state of ‘divine madness.’”
Socrates teaches a youth, José Aparicio, 1811

Nygren proclaims
that it is the business
of man “to cut
himself loose from
the lower world and
ascend to the higher;
and when he does so,
when he turns away
from the things of
sense to the world of
Ideas,” then the
perfect Ideas triumph
over earthly ideas.
Plato’s Allegory of the Cave, by Michiel Coxie, 1540’s.

Plato describes this in the Republic when the
ignorant choose to advance to the light of the son in
the Allegory of the Cave, and in St Gregory of Nyssa
and CS Lewis, whose souls continue their advance up
the mountain to ultimate Christian salvation. In the
dark cave, the soul has retained a memory of the
light above and feels an upward attraction to the
light.

Nygren says “the sight of the
beautiful, which comes to man in
the sense-world,” “awakens Eros in
his soul; not, however, in order that
his love may be fixed on the
beautiful object, but rather that it
may pass beyond it in the continual
ascent which is of the very essence
of Eros,” pointing to the “Absolute
Beauty, in which it participates and
from which it derives its own
beauty. This ascent is described in
the Phaedrus as the heavenly
chariot pulled by the mortal and
immortal steeds.
Debate, Socrates & Aspasia, by Nicolas-André Monsiau, 1800

What are the types of Platonic Eros, or love?
Diotima describes them to Socrates in Plato’s
Symposium:
• “Eros is the love of desire, or acquisitive
love.
• Eros is man’s way to the Divine.
• Eros is egocentric love.”
In this context, Eros as egocentric is not
derogatory, but simply describes how we seek
the good for ourselves, how we seek
happiness, and indeed, how we seek
salvation.
Allegory of love, by Hans Makart, circa 1800

Eros as acquisitive love:
Nygren notes that “Plato says Eros is
intermediate between having and
not having. Eros obviously is a
desire, a longing, a striving. But,
man only desires and longs for that
which he does not have, and of
which he feels a need;” and only if it
is valuable. “Hence love, as Plato
sees it,” is both “the consciousness
of a present need and the effort to
find satisfaction for it in a higher and
happier state.”
Venus and Adonis, by François Lemoyne, 1729

Eros as acquisitive love, continued:
“Plato has no room for spontaneous
and unmotivated love: for acquisitive
love is motivated by the value of its
object.” There is a baser form of
“acquisitive love that drags the soul
downwards and only binds it the more
firmly to things temporal; and that is
sensual love.” But “Eros is a love that is
directed upwards; it is the soul’s
upward longing and striving towards
the heavenly world, the world of Ideas.”
Girl with a Mirror, an Allegory of Profane Love,
by Paulus Moreelse, 1627

Eros as man’s way to the Divine:
As Nygren notes, Plato’s Eros has a
religious significance: “Eros is the
mediator between Divine and human life.
It is Eros that raises the imperfect to
perfection, the mortal to immortality. In
this connection, Plato can speak of love
as something Divine, though only in the
sense that it unites man with the gods,
not in the sense that the gods feel love.
The gods live their blessed life wanting
for nothing. They do not need to love.”
Pan Comforts Psyche, by Ernst Klimt, 1892

In contrast to the Geek gods, our
Christian God does love us. In the
future we will reflect on Nygren’s
discussion of Christian love in
Scriptures and the writings of the
Church Fathers. But for Plato, “love
is always the desire of the lower for
the higher, the imperfect for the
perfect. Eros is the way by which
man mounts up to the Divine, not
the way by which the Divine stoops
down to man.” “Eros is itself a form
of flight from the world.”
The Marriage at Cana, by Maerten de Vos, 1596

Eros as egocentric love:
Nygren observes: “The entire
structure of Platonic Eros is
egocentric. Everything centers
on the individual self and its
destiny. All that matters from
first to last is the soul that is
aflame with Eros: its Divine
nature, its present straits while
it is in bondage to the body, its
gradual ascent to the world
above, its blessed vision of the
Ideas in their unveiled glory.” Allegory of love: Happy union, by Paolo Veronese, 1575

Diotima tells Socrates that “it is by the
acquisition of good things that the
happy are made happy. And since all
men wish to be happy,” then “all men
love the good.” “To love the good is the
same as to desire to possess the good
and to possess it permanently. Love is
therefore always a desire for
immortality. But in this desire, too, the
egocentric will is in evidence.” This
positive egocentric love is illustrated in
the Phaedrus, where the souls
endeavor to rise to the higher world in
a chariot race.
Allegory of love, Gerard van Honthorst, 1600's

Barnes and Nobles has an excellent collection of the
main Platonic dialogues with the classical translation
by Benjamin Jowett, which we also found free on
the internet in the Gutenberg site.
We also included insights we gained from the Great
Courses lectures by the Platonic enthusiast,
Professor Michael Sugrue. When listening to his
lectures, you can understand how some in the
ancient world came to view Socrates and Plato as
religious philosophers.

Public domain: Lysis
https://amzn.to/3t3Cu8w
https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/plato-socrates-and-the-dialogues
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/lysis.html

https://www.meetup.com/Reflections/

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLqDkfFbWhXOnzdjp__YZtg/

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