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Scaling Agile Transformation in a
Waterfall Enterprise
By Ryan Johnson & Chidanand Panshikar
Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons
Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/
Elephant?
Horse?
Rabbit?
Today, software engineers are being asked to do
more than ever.
As an IT organization you will need to be able to
move at the speed of your business whether that is
an elephant, a horse, or a rabbit OR maybe all three.
Building a team that is capable of doing this requires
more that agile adoption
Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons
Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/
R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 R7 R8 R9 R10 R11 R12
R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6
R1 R2 R3 R4
Fast and Quick
Moderate
Slow
Fast Lane Traffic: Predominantly applies with systems of engagement (mobile, digital front-ends); greenfield (no
tech debt); fully componentized; invested heavily in upskilling and T-shaped resources; mature CI/CD pipeline to
prod with sufficient QA; frequent changes are a must
Middle Lane Traffic: Predominantly applies when Systems of Differentiation (Decoupling Layer, e.g. Mid-Tier Interfaces); some
dependencies on slower moving applications; investing in comprehensive test automation coverage – unit, functional, perf level – as
part of CI/CD pipeline; building features while burning down on tech debt; semi-frequent releases are business sufficient
Slow Lane Traffic: Predominantly applies when Systems of Record; waterfall or agile yet part of coordinated
releases; high risk of change; monolithic system; mainframe; high degree of enterprise connectivity &
dependencies; few deployments are business sufficient
AGILE CAN BE APPLIED IN EACH CASE
REALITY – WE LIVE IN A MULTISPEED WORLD
Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons
Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/
THE CASE FOR AGILE
THE BUSINESS CASE FOR USING AGILE TO OPTIMIZE SOFTWARE DELIVERY IS
DRIVEN BY FOUR KEY OBJECTIVES:
1. REDUCE TIME TO MARKET (INCREASE VELOCITY)
Time to deliver new features - reduce the Time to Market, increase the NPV, reduce risk of
building the wrong thing
2. INCREASE BUSINESS AGILITY
Enabling experimental culture
3. INCREASE DELIVERY PRODUCTIVITY (INCLUDES RISK)
Reducing the cost of delivering projects through reduced effort, improved quality (reduced rework
and risk of failure)
4. REDUCE RUNNING COSTS
Reducing the cost of running applications in production
REDUCE COST
ENABLE DELIVERY IMPROVEMENT
Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons
Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/
OUR APPROACH
HOW SHOULD WE THINK ABOUT THE ENGAGING? A REAL MODERN ENGINEERING CHANGE ADDRESSES THE WHOLE ORGANIZATION, BECAUSE
TRUE BUSINESS AGILITY INTEGRATES EXECUTION AND DELIVERY WITH STRATEGY, ORGANIZATION, AND LEADERSHIP CHANGE
• Adopt practices like TDD, XP, Pair
Programming, automated testing?
• Pick the right agile methodologies?
Execution
Delivery
Product
Strategy
Organization
Leadership
• Achieve Continuous Delivery (CI/CD),
incorporate resiliency & continuously monitor?
• Track benefit and success?
• Shift my funding strategy?
• Evaluate functionality to thrill my customers and
incorporate their feedback?
• Build consistent teams?
• Organize around products vs. projects?
• Adapt internal skill-sets?
• Build Leaders who are actively owning and
changing organizational systems for the better?
• Ensure consistent LOB engagement?
• Incentivize change?
Common Questions – How do I…
Execution
Delivery
Product Strategy
Organization
Leadership
Agile
Techniques
Continuous
Delivery
Innovate Products
Adapt Culture
Evolve LeadershipProcess Culture
Focus on process is “An Adoption”
Focus on process + culture is “A Transformation”
Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons
Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/
Circle of Concern –
Things that worry, bother, or
frustrate
Business Engagement
Operations Engagement
Enterprise Dependencies & Arch
Project funded teams
Requirements and Change Controls
Demand Management
Circle of
Concern
Circle of Control –
Things we can control
Software engineering skills
Unit testing
Code Reviews
Product Management
Automation of manual tasks
Continuous Integration
Quality
OFTEN OUR PEOPLE ARE ASKED TO CONTROL OR INFLUENCE TEAMS, IMPEDIMENTS OR TASKS
OUTSIDE OF THEIR CONTROL. THIS RESULTS IN BOTTLENECKS IN DELIVERY AND
FRUSTRATION AMONGST EMPLOYEES
THE CIRCLE OF CONTROL
Circle
of
Control
Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons
Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/
JOURNEY TO MODERN ENGINEERING
Circle of Control –
Improve on Things we can control
Circle of Control –
Expand Things we can control
Circle of Concern –
Reduce Things that worry, bother, or frustrate
Software Engineering Skills
Unit Testing
Automation of Manual Tasks
Embedded QA and Ops
Continuous Integration &
Deployment
Embedded Product
Enable self governing teams
and build trust
Agile Reporting
Demand Management – Fund
Products
Break or Manage Enterprise
Dependencies
Biz/Ops Engagement
Build Trust
Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons
Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/
Circle of Control –
Improve on Things we can control
Software engineering skills – upskill engineers with modern engineering skillset
Unit testing – teach engineers better unit testing strategies such as test driven
development and automation of unit testing
Product Management – upskill scrum masters or product managers on new ways
of thinking through agile development (Lean Product, Small Stories, Rapid
Feedback to Dev Team)
Automation of manual tasks – automate code merges, automate unit testing,
automate integration, automate deployment, AUTOMATE AS MUCH AS
POSSIBLE
Circle of
Concern
Circle
of
Control
FOCUS ON IMPROVING THE THINGS YOU CAN CONTROL THROUGH ENABLEMENT, ACADEMIES,
AND COACHING.
IMPROVE CIRCLE OF CONTROL
Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons
Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/
Circle of Control –
Expand Things we can control
Code Reviews – Reduce manual code reviews by senior engineers, automate and upskill on
pair programming techniques
Continuous Integration – enable ability to constantly integrate code for fast feedbacks (i.e.
small user stories, CI pipeline and environment, automation of tasks)
Continuous Deployment – enable continuous deployments to higher environments
automatically
Quality – upskill engineers on automated testing and TDD, engrain QA skillsets into the
engineering team
Build Trust – eliminate command and control culture, change the reporting structure, trust
teams and individuals to do the right thing
EXPAND THE CIRCLE OF CONTROL TO REACH OUT AND PARTNER WITH BUSINESS,
OPERATIONS, QA, AND THE ENTERPRISE
EXPAND THE CIRCLE OF CONTROL
Circle of
Concern
Circle
of
Control
Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons
Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/
Circle of Concern –
Reduce Things that worry, bother, or frustrate
Business Engagement – business partnering with technology to delivery working valuable
software
Operations Engagement – operations skills embedded within development team,
automaton of deployment activities, automation or reduction of ITSM approvals
Enterprise Dependencies & Arch – break off from enterprise releases and enable multi-
speed delivery through cloud, Devops, microservices
Project funded teams high team turnover – fund projects and long lasting teams that live
with the product
Requirements and Change Management – Enable a agile culture and process that
embraces changes based on user and business value
Demand Management – Fund products not projects, enable self managing, autonomous
teams
REDUCE THE CIRCLE OF CONCERN SO YOUR PEOPLE ARE THEIR MOST PRODUCTIVE, LESS
STRESSED, AND MORE VALUABLE
REDUCE THE CIRCLE OF CONCERN
Circle of
Concern
Circle
of
Control
Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons
Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/
COMMON ROADBLOCKS
ROLE BASED GUIDANCE
• I’m a developer not a tester
• Once the code deploys its operations to
deal with
• Follow my manager/leader approach
• I don’t have a charge code to automate the
build / deploy steps
• I must obtain 72 approvals to get this code
into production
• Leaders do not trust teams to do what is
right/best for the company
• Without trust there is no empowerment to
employees (i.e. more bottlenecks, less
engagement, etc).
ADMINISTRATIVE
BURDENS
ORGANIZATIONAL
STRUCTURE
• Organization wall/siloes
• Conway’s Law - organizations which
design systems ... are constrained to
produce designs which are copies of the
communication structures of these
organizations.
• I don’t have a way to support CI/CD
• I can’t run my test on every check in
• I don’t have the ability to deploy my code
TRUST
TOOLS CULTURE
• Someone else will deal with it/not my
problem
• Throw it over the wall mentality
• QA team will catch any problems
• This code won’t go live for months
Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons
Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/
Address organizational
impediments to speed and
delivery
Modern Engineering Coaching
• Product organization
• Agile Demand Management
• Help leaders grow, identify and
address the challenges to delivering
value more quickly
Organizational Change Management
• Harvest learnings and issues from
Labs, DoJo, Team Coaching and
develop recommendations to remove
impediments
• Training and Enablement Roadmap
Circle of
Concern
Direct Application of Best
Practices to uplift your people
and improve delivery
Labs
• One to One Pairing
• Deliver Working software
• Identification of impediments
• Feedback loop to org management
• Enabled Team Members
DoJo
• One to Many Pairing
• Focus on engineering and agile best
practices in a team
Coaching
• One to Many Teams
• Further scaling of agile and engineering
best practices to more teams in the org
Academies
• Up to 20 people
• DevOps Academy – Hands on CI/CD
OUR GOAL IS TO BRING THE BEST OF ACCENTURE TO HELP OUR CLIENTS BUILD A
SUSTAINABLE CULTURE OF WORLD CLASS ENGINEERING.
THE CIRCLE OF CONTROL
Circle of
Control
> Stay Connected.
#springone@s1p

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Scaling Agile Transformation in a Waterfall Enterprise

  • 1. Scaling Agile Transformation in a Waterfall Enterprise By Ryan Johnson & Chidanand Panshikar
  • 2. Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/ Elephant? Horse? Rabbit? Today, software engineers are being asked to do more than ever. As an IT organization you will need to be able to move at the speed of your business whether that is an elephant, a horse, or a rabbit OR maybe all three. Building a team that is capable of doing this requires more that agile adoption
  • 3. Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/ R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 R7 R8 R9 R10 R11 R12 R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6 R1 R2 R3 R4 Fast and Quick Moderate Slow Fast Lane Traffic: Predominantly applies with systems of engagement (mobile, digital front-ends); greenfield (no tech debt); fully componentized; invested heavily in upskilling and T-shaped resources; mature CI/CD pipeline to prod with sufficient QA; frequent changes are a must Middle Lane Traffic: Predominantly applies when Systems of Differentiation (Decoupling Layer, e.g. Mid-Tier Interfaces); some dependencies on slower moving applications; investing in comprehensive test automation coverage – unit, functional, perf level – as part of CI/CD pipeline; building features while burning down on tech debt; semi-frequent releases are business sufficient Slow Lane Traffic: Predominantly applies when Systems of Record; waterfall or agile yet part of coordinated releases; high risk of change; monolithic system; mainframe; high degree of enterprise connectivity & dependencies; few deployments are business sufficient AGILE CAN BE APPLIED IN EACH CASE REALITY – WE LIVE IN A MULTISPEED WORLD
  • 4. Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/ THE CASE FOR AGILE THE BUSINESS CASE FOR USING AGILE TO OPTIMIZE SOFTWARE DELIVERY IS DRIVEN BY FOUR KEY OBJECTIVES: 1. REDUCE TIME TO MARKET (INCREASE VELOCITY) Time to deliver new features - reduce the Time to Market, increase the NPV, reduce risk of building the wrong thing 2. INCREASE BUSINESS AGILITY Enabling experimental culture 3. INCREASE DELIVERY PRODUCTIVITY (INCLUDES RISK) Reducing the cost of delivering projects through reduced effort, improved quality (reduced rework and risk of failure) 4. REDUCE RUNNING COSTS Reducing the cost of running applications in production REDUCE COST ENABLE DELIVERY IMPROVEMENT
  • 5. Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/ OUR APPROACH HOW SHOULD WE THINK ABOUT THE ENGAGING? A REAL MODERN ENGINEERING CHANGE ADDRESSES THE WHOLE ORGANIZATION, BECAUSE TRUE BUSINESS AGILITY INTEGRATES EXECUTION AND DELIVERY WITH STRATEGY, ORGANIZATION, AND LEADERSHIP CHANGE • Adopt practices like TDD, XP, Pair Programming, automated testing? • Pick the right agile methodologies? Execution Delivery Product Strategy Organization Leadership • Achieve Continuous Delivery (CI/CD), incorporate resiliency & continuously monitor? • Track benefit and success? • Shift my funding strategy? • Evaluate functionality to thrill my customers and incorporate their feedback? • Build consistent teams? • Organize around products vs. projects? • Adapt internal skill-sets? • Build Leaders who are actively owning and changing organizational systems for the better? • Ensure consistent LOB engagement? • Incentivize change? Common Questions – How do I… Execution Delivery Product Strategy Organization Leadership Agile Techniques Continuous Delivery Innovate Products Adapt Culture Evolve LeadershipProcess Culture Focus on process is “An Adoption” Focus on process + culture is “A Transformation”
  • 6. Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/ Circle of Concern – Things that worry, bother, or frustrate Business Engagement Operations Engagement Enterprise Dependencies & Arch Project funded teams Requirements and Change Controls Demand Management Circle of Concern Circle of Control – Things we can control Software engineering skills Unit testing Code Reviews Product Management Automation of manual tasks Continuous Integration Quality OFTEN OUR PEOPLE ARE ASKED TO CONTROL OR INFLUENCE TEAMS, IMPEDIMENTS OR TASKS OUTSIDE OF THEIR CONTROL. THIS RESULTS IN BOTTLENECKS IN DELIVERY AND FRUSTRATION AMONGST EMPLOYEES THE CIRCLE OF CONTROL Circle of Control
  • 7. Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/ JOURNEY TO MODERN ENGINEERING Circle of Control – Improve on Things we can control Circle of Control – Expand Things we can control Circle of Concern – Reduce Things that worry, bother, or frustrate Software Engineering Skills Unit Testing Automation of Manual Tasks Embedded QA and Ops Continuous Integration & Deployment Embedded Product Enable self governing teams and build trust Agile Reporting Demand Management – Fund Products Break or Manage Enterprise Dependencies Biz/Ops Engagement Build Trust
  • 8. Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/ Circle of Control – Improve on Things we can control Software engineering skills – upskill engineers with modern engineering skillset Unit testing – teach engineers better unit testing strategies such as test driven development and automation of unit testing Product Management – upskill scrum masters or product managers on new ways of thinking through agile development (Lean Product, Small Stories, Rapid Feedback to Dev Team) Automation of manual tasks – automate code merges, automate unit testing, automate integration, automate deployment, AUTOMATE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE Circle of Concern Circle of Control FOCUS ON IMPROVING THE THINGS YOU CAN CONTROL THROUGH ENABLEMENT, ACADEMIES, AND COACHING. IMPROVE CIRCLE OF CONTROL
  • 9. Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/ Circle of Control – Expand Things we can control Code Reviews – Reduce manual code reviews by senior engineers, automate and upskill on pair programming techniques Continuous Integration – enable ability to constantly integrate code for fast feedbacks (i.e. small user stories, CI pipeline and environment, automation of tasks) Continuous Deployment – enable continuous deployments to higher environments automatically Quality – upskill engineers on automated testing and TDD, engrain QA skillsets into the engineering team Build Trust – eliminate command and control culture, change the reporting structure, trust teams and individuals to do the right thing EXPAND THE CIRCLE OF CONTROL TO REACH OUT AND PARTNER WITH BUSINESS, OPERATIONS, QA, AND THE ENTERPRISE EXPAND THE CIRCLE OF CONTROL Circle of Concern Circle of Control
  • 10. Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/ Circle of Concern – Reduce Things that worry, bother, or frustrate Business Engagement – business partnering with technology to delivery working valuable software Operations Engagement – operations skills embedded within development team, automaton of deployment activities, automation or reduction of ITSM approvals Enterprise Dependencies & Arch – break off from enterprise releases and enable multi- speed delivery through cloud, Devops, microservices Project funded teams high team turnover – fund projects and long lasting teams that live with the product Requirements and Change Management – Enable a agile culture and process that embraces changes based on user and business value Demand Management – Fund products not projects, enable self managing, autonomous teams REDUCE THE CIRCLE OF CONCERN SO YOUR PEOPLE ARE THEIR MOST PRODUCTIVE, LESS STRESSED, AND MORE VALUABLE REDUCE THE CIRCLE OF CONCERN Circle of Concern Circle of Control
  • 11. Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/ COMMON ROADBLOCKS ROLE BASED GUIDANCE • I’m a developer not a tester • Once the code deploys its operations to deal with • Follow my manager/leader approach • I don’t have a charge code to automate the build / deploy steps • I must obtain 72 approvals to get this code into production • Leaders do not trust teams to do what is right/best for the company • Without trust there is no empowerment to employees (i.e. more bottlenecks, less engagement, etc). ADMINISTRATIVE BURDENS ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE • Organization wall/siloes • Conway’s Law - organizations which design systems ... are constrained to produce designs which are copies of the communication structures of these organizations. • I don’t have a way to support CI/CD • I can’t run my test on every check in • I don’t have the ability to deploy my code TRUST TOOLS CULTURE • Someone else will deal with it/not my problem • Throw it over the wall mentality • QA team will catch any problems • This code won’t go live for months
  • 12. Unless otherwise indicated, these slides are © 2013 -2018 Pivotal Software, Inc. and licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by -nc/3.0/ Address organizational impediments to speed and delivery Modern Engineering Coaching • Product organization • Agile Demand Management • Help leaders grow, identify and address the challenges to delivering value more quickly Organizational Change Management • Harvest learnings and issues from Labs, DoJo, Team Coaching and develop recommendations to remove impediments • Training and Enablement Roadmap Circle of Concern Direct Application of Best Practices to uplift your people and improve delivery Labs • One to One Pairing • Deliver Working software • Identification of impediments • Feedback loop to org management • Enabled Team Members DoJo • One to Many Pairing • Focus on engineering and agile best practices in a team Coaching • One to Many Teams • Further scaling of agile and engineering best practices to more teams in the org Academies • Up to 20 people • DevOps Academy – Hands on CI/CD OUR GOAL IS TO BRING THE BEST OF ACCENTURE TO HELP OUR CLIENTS BUILD A SUSTAINABLE CULTURE OF WORLD CLASS ENGINEERING. THE CIRCLE OF CONTROL Circle of Control

Editor's Notes

  1. Speaker: Ryan As the pressure to deliver value in an ever changing landscape continues to accelerate, IT organizations and in particular software engineers are being ask to do more/different work than ever before. And whether your organization delivers as the speed of a rabbit, a horse, or an elephant, you can drive an agile transformation to build a team that is capable of rising to the occasion.
  2. Speaker: Ryan At Accenture we typical group applications in to one of three large buckets, rabbits, horses and elephants. These applications are grouped by both their deployment cadence, but also the amount of tech debt, type of people and business value. Each type of application has a different release cycle, each one has the ability to apply agile concepts.
  3. Speaker: Ryan Many enterprises have undertaken an agile transformation journey, with full internalizing the benefits that agile hopes to drive. They are doing agile because everyone else is doing agile. By keep the benefits of agile in mind, this can ensure that you are driving the right behavior
  4. Speaker: Ryan
  5. Speaker: Ryan
  6. Speaker: Ryan
  7. Speaker: Chida Notes: Make sure you add in your real life examples Circle of Control is very important especially for the ‘Teams’ as they stay motivated and engaged. In our Columbus Innovation Hub we are following this religiously where the team members are focused on TDD, upskilling themselves consistently. Our Product Managers are putting together smaller stories, leaner product and emphasizing the befits of these to client to seek rapid feedback. I’ve seen the change first hand. For example in my last engagement, we had little to no automation except CI, our stories were big as the PMs were not focused on leaner product. It led to very little motivation in the team towards delivery. People were focused on getting things done rather than delivering value. And now in my current engagement where the client is big-time ‘Waterfall’ Enterprise, we as a ‘Team’ are focused on what we can do to deliver value consistently. We have smaller stories that would be built and functionally tested on average in a day following TDD, BDD practices and show the results every week to all the stakeholders even though the broader organization still follows waterfall.
  8. Speaker: Chida Notes: Make sure you add in your real life examples As we have smaller stories Product Owners can gauge the value better and we’re able to change client’s point of view to look at the product delivery. They get a sense of product and are able course-correct their asks. This has led to build trust in the team. The team has more confidence as we focus more on Continuous Integration and Deployment. Team members are owning development, unit test, automated functional tests for their assigned stories. They are becoming better software engineers rather than ‘Developers’ or ‘Testers’. Team members are pairing so we have collective ownership of the product and in turn save time on code reviews.
  9. Speaker: Ryan Notes: Make sure you add in your real life examples
  10. Speaker: Both Notes: Make sure you add in your real life examples
  11. Speaker: Ryan